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MY atv (chinese made) 4 wheeler, will not start

  
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MY atv (chinese made) 4 wheeler, will not start

 
billl2099 billl2099
Enthusiast | Posts: 254 | Joined: 04/08
Posted: 09/22/09
10:06 AM

the stator is on the right side underneath the engine cooling fan and flywheel, on the gy6 engines sometimes the wires are routed incorrectly or made loose on the stator, then they rub against the flywheel, it then wears out the insulation around the wire and shorts out against the flywheel. you will need a flywheel puller to remove flywheel and then carefully check out all the wires. if you can't find a flywheel puller locally, PM me i have a new one i can send you. or if you need a 6 coil stator or a cdi unit i have a good used on i'll sell cheap.  
07 prowler

 
atv001 atv001
New User | Posts: 14 | Joined: 08/09
Posted: 09/23/09
04:21 AM

Does anyone know which equipment is responsible for regulating the voltage to the ignition coil?  

 
DSMissed DSMissed
New User | Posts: 1 | Joined: 09/09
Posted: 09/23/09
08:12 PM

Hey, I just joined and am having problems with a China 110cc I just bought my son for his birthday.

The previous owner said it ran good til he accidentally hooked up the battery backwards, now it just cranks.

I thought it was the stator and bought a new one, nothing changed. It has spark, but it is very very weak.  Tested the coil while cranking and it read .7 volts, otherwise it had nothing.

The battery is charged and reads 100%

What do you all think it could be?  

 
LynnEdwards LynnEdwards
User | Posts: 122 | Joined: 09/08
Posted: 09/23/09
10:43 PM

Icon Quoteatv001:
A local car mechanic told me that if I test the voltage on the ignition coil with an analog meter, I should see a break in the current while cranking the engine (the needle on the meter should go to zero and then spike back up).  According to him every time the voltage drops to zero and then spikes back up it should produce a spark @ the plug.  

I borrowed his analog meter and when I did this test, the meter goes from 0 to 12 and then it stays constant (does not go back to 0 and spike back up).  According to him that’s why I am only getting an initial spark to the plug but nothing after that.  He wasn’t sure if it is the CDI or the Stator that is responsible for regulating the voltage.  Does anyone know?  

Also where is the Stator, how do I get to it to verify all the connections, is there anything I can test to verify if the stator is working correctly?


I suspect your car mechanic is thinking of Kettering style ignition systems when describing interrupted 12 volts applied to the ignition coil primary.  This system hasn't been used on cars for 35 years or more.  It isn't used on your quad either.  You have a (C)apacitive (D)ischarge (I)gnition system - i.e. CDI.  CDI systems are completly different.  CDI systems have replaced Kettering style igntion systems.

There is no 12 volt *ANYTHING* in your ignition system.  The spark come from the CDI.  The CDI is powered off a high voltage AC winding on your stator.  The CDI is triggered by another lower voltage AC winding on the stator.  Then somebody tells you you should have 12 volts at the coil, and then you measure 12 volts.  This has me a little worried.

Below is what the voltage should be on your igntion coil.  There are actually two different waveforms because I have two different brand CDI's.  Both work fine.  CDI's should be considered black boxes that take in the stator high voltage AC, the trigger pulse. the kill switch connection, and then produce an energy pulse that will couple through the ignition coil to fire the plug.  There are many, many ways to do this.  I think these two examples show how bizzare the differences in designs can be.  So what what would your meter show for these waveforms? I have no idea.  It depends on how the meter is designed inside.  Different meters will read differently.  

The following was measured with an oscilloscope at engine idle.  At cranking speeds the waveforms would be the same except the amplitude would be smaller, and the time between pulses would be longer.  An oscilloscope is just a fancy voltmeter that is able to measure very fast moving voltages and plot them graphically over time. The horizontal axis is time, the vertical axis is voltage:  Use the horizontal scroll bar to see the detail on the right of the graph.

3Jpg  

 
LynnEdwards LynnEdwards
User | Posts: 122 | Joined: 09/08
Posted: 09/24/09
09:58 PM

Icon QuoteDSMissed:
Hey, I just joined and am having problems with a China 110cc I just bought my son for his birthday.

The previous owner said it ran good til he accidentally hooked up the battery backwards, now it just cranks.

I thought it was the stator and bought a new one, nothing changed. It has spark, but it is very very weak.  Tested the coil while cranking and it read .7 volts, otherwise it had nothing.

The battery is charged and reads 100%

What do you all think it could be?


I had to think some about what would happen if you hook the battery up backwards on your 110cc quad.  

It sure wouldn't hurt the stator - that's just a bunch of coiled up wire.  It certainly could hurt the 4 pin regulator, but that has nothing to do with spark generation, and would be another issue if your battery isn't charging later.

Question #1:  How many pins are on your CDI?  Is it 5 or 4?  The reason I ask is that 4 pin CDIs are usually powered off 12 volts DC (the battery) while 5 pin CDIs are always high voltage AC powered off the stator.  If you have a 5 pin CDI then there is no direct connection between the battery and the CDI and therefore I can't see how it could be damaged.  This may not be true of a 4 pin CDI.

Question #2:  Do you have one of those remote control modules on your quad?  They run off the battery voltage and tie into the ignition system via the kill switch pin on the CDI.  If you have one of these then unplug it and see if your spark gets any more robust.  A working quad will start without the remote module plugged in but you usually can't kill it with the ignition switch - use the handlebar kill switch instead.

There is always the possibility that hooking the battery up backwards has nothing to do with your problem.  Perhaps it was just a coincidence, or more likely you're not getting the whole story (former owners are often good at holding back key info).  

 
kayh123 kayh123
New User | Posts: 3 | Joined: 10/09
Posted: 10/16/09
07:12 PM

Quick Question:
  If the kill switch on an atv is "bad" or working improperly will the starter motor still turn over?

very brief synopsis: ATV Eton 50 CC 2 stroke.  Ran great.  Was in a flood but not submerged.  Sat for one year.  Me and my boys decided to rebuild and clean it up as a father & sons project (9 & 11). We rebuilt the rear end and brakes.  Took it apart and cleaned it up.  No rust in the "guts".  We put it back together.  Starter motor turns engine over but no spark.  I am going to follow some of the steps above but I hate to troubleshoot when a simple problem exists.  

Advice?  

 
LynnEdwards LynnEdwards
User | Posts: 122 | Joined: 09/08
Posted: 10/16/09
09:01 PM

I've never seen an eton quad.  There are manuals and wiring diagrams for these at:

http://www.anythingatv.com/Technical/Wiring_Diagrams.htm

The above link is to the wiring diagram page, but if you probe around at this site you will find manuals as well.

Based on the published wiring diagram for a 50cc eton viper, kill switch issues will keep a quad from starting but won't prevent the starter from turning.  You will just not get spark while cranking.  This is the same as most chinese quads (is eton chinese?  I don't know).

Based on the published wiring diagram for the same quad, the kill switch wiring is backwards from most chinese quads.  The kill switches must be shorted across to get spark, and opening the kill switch connection kills spark.  On the other hand most chinese quad kill switch wiring requires a short to ground to kill spark, and all kill switches must be open to get spark.

There is another implication of this wiring scheme.  Eton quads have all kill switches wired in series (nose to tail), and all switches must be closed (shorted) to get spark.  Any switch that is open will prevent spark.  Most chinese quads have all their kill switches wired in parallel (side by side).  If any one (or more) of the kill switches is closed (shorted to ground) then spark is killed.

The viper has three kill switches:

1) One pole of the two pole ignition switch
2) The handlebar kill switch
3) The safety tether pull kill switch

Note again that all this is based on the published wiring diagrams.  Without personal experience any conclusions can only be as accurate as the published info.

Be very careful when buying replacement parts.  Most generic chinese parts will not work on etons.  

 
kayh123 kayh123
New User | Posts: 3 | Joined: 10/09
Posted: 10/17/09
07:02 AM

Lynn,
 Thanks for quick reply.  I have extensive experience in electronics (but not on ATV's).  The main factors are:

1.  The Quad worked prior to the flood and sitting for one year
2.  We took  the unit apart but were very careful to label all wires and take pictures for reassemble.
3.  There are only four main electrical parts on this very simply quad (it has capacitors that are attached to the frame.

So the question is: is this problem natural(flood or time) or is it man made.  I need to eliminate the man made before I spend too much more time and then $$ on it.  The unit does not have any lights and I don't think it has saftey tether switch.  I will look at the other items you mentioned and continue to ohm wires and check connections.  One interesting piece of information is that the handle bars have and on/off switch and also the rear brake has a "safety" switch.  The motor seems to turn over (no spark) in any position but if I disconnect the wire, nothing turns over.

any help will be greatly appreciated  

 
savannahkid savannahkid
New User | Posts: 15 | Joined: 10/09
Posted: 10/17/09
07:19 AM

Not to be a butinski, but reversing the battery will take out the inline fuse on the battery positive wire,,,,oops,,been there, done that..  

 
LynnEdwards LynnEdwards
User | Posts: 122 | Joined: 09/08
Posted: 10/17/09
10:00 AM

Yes, the brake switch is a safety switch that keep the starter motor from turning unless the brake is applied.  This is meant to keep the quad from starting up and plowing into someone.  It has nothing to do with generating spark.

I agree with you that doing some measuring and analysis before buying parts is the right way to go.  It may be just a bad connection somewhere.

To troubleshoot "no spark" problems I would start at the CDI since it is in the middle of the ignition system.  Some measurements there should help point the way to the actual problem.

For the CDI to work it needs the following:

1) It needs to be "not killed".  For etons this means the kill switch connection yo the CDI must be grounded.  (Keep in mind that this is backwards from most chinese quads. So if you are doing research and trying to relate to other "no spark" troubleshooting procedures, then be aware of this so you don't get confused.) You can verify this grounded connection using an ohmmeter at the CDI plug.  When measuring you need to have the ignition on and the handlebar run/stop switch in the run position.

2) You need to have high voltage AC power to the CDI.  The power portion of the CDI spark generation circuitry does not run off 12 volts. It is powered off a high voltage winding in the stator.  The best way to measure this is to unplug the CDI and measure the AC voltage on this connection (to ground) while cranking the engine.  I don't know what etons put out, but if it is anything like other quads it will be 80 volts or so. (Remember it is AC volts, not DC).

3) You need a timing trigger pulse.  This comes from the stator also.  This narrow signal timing pulse tells the CDI to dump stored energy accumulated from the high voltage AC ststor supply all at once onto the ignition coil primary.  This signal is AC also, and because it is narrow and happens only once per revolution is reads low in AC voltage.  Again I don't know what voltage but I'm guessing it should read something between 0.2 and 0.5 volts AC  while the engine is cranking.

4) You need a connection from the CDI output to the ignition coil primary.  The CDI dumps high voltage stored energy (100 to 300 volts) onto the ignition coil primary which steps it up by a factor of 100 or so to 10,000 to 30,000 volts on the secondary (which feeds the spark plug).

5) Some eton wiring diagrams show a 12 volt connection from the load side of the ignition switch to the CDI.  This line probably powers some internal logic that massages the trigger pulse timing.  If your CDI has this connection it almost certainly has to be there for the CDI to work.  

 
kayh123 kayh123
New User | Posts: 3 | Joined: 10/09
Posted: 10/18/09
07:13 PM

Lynn,
Didnt have much time today but I do have some to add.  I really appreciate your help (and so will my boys).  I have about 76VAC coming out of the magneto and going to the CDI(I think this is where you said there should be 80 volts).  So I am thinking this is not the problem (a very good thing).  There is 16 VAC going out of the CDI and into the coil.  Still no spark.  So I decided to take all four parts that make up the electrical system (coil, CDI, Voltage Reg., and resisters)to the local ATV/scooter repair shop.  They were reccomended by the larger ATV dealship in the area (Melbourne, Fl).  Anyway I did a drawing and showed the repair guy all the parts and my drwaing with measurements.  He immediatly said it was the CDI.  He went back and got one that looked the same. I took it home and hooked it up($30 later).  Well guess what....it didnt work.  There was only 2 VAC going to the coil.  I unhooked the green wire coming from the CDI and into the black wire (grounds).  Guess what.....50VAC to the coil and a spark at the plug.  So that goes exactly with waht you were saying about the CDI being grounded (chinese one).  Ok, so it gets better.  I put the old CDI back on and I still have 16VAC going to the coil but now I a spark not sure why but leads me to believe a bad connection (I put the new CDI back to double check). I don't think the 16 VAC or even the 50VAC is hot enough by what you were saying (100-300VAC).  With that said my way ahead is to take the CDI back and try and get my money back (yeah I know).  I then plan to start ohming our more wires and more measurements.  I will then try to get the correct CDI.  Are you sure about the 100-300 VAC to the coil.  It would make sense as we got 74VAC to the CDI why would it be less?  Again thanks for your help  

 
shaun4life shaun4life
New User | Posts: 2 | Joined: 10/09
Posted: 10/19/09
10:56 AM

hi im new to this can any 1 help? i need front and rear lights for a 110cc tao tao quad also 4 new tyres sze 16x8.00-7 please let me no thanks shaun  

 
LynnEdwards LynnEdwards
User | Posts: 122 | Joined: 09/08
Posted: 10/19/09
09:27 PM

kayh123,

Unfortunately your wire colors don't match the wiring diagrams I'm looking at so I can't be sure what connection you are grounding in order to get spark.  I'm assuming it is the kill switch connection.

If you look back a few post in this same thread you will see some waveform picures for what the voltage is at the ignition coil primary for two different generic chinese quad CDI's at engine idle.  They both work and they are quite different.  The peak voltage excursions are quite high (150 to 250 volts) but they are followed by long periods of nothing in between.  

Now add to this scenario that you are trying to measure these types of waveforms with a digital voltmeter.  Voltmeters aren't designed to measure these types of waveforms, and what you get depends on meter design as well as CDI design.  You really can't draw valid conclusions from measuring the voltage at the ignition coil primary with a voltmeter. Voltmeters (on the AC scales) are built to measure sine wave houshold voltages at 50 or 60 hertz.  Measuring anything else is going to tell you something other than the truth,  You need an oscilloscope for measuring the ignition primary voltage.

Also keep in mind that the ignition voltage generated by the stator is proportional to engine speed.  So the voltage will be much lower during cranking, roughly 2 times as high at idle, and much higher still at high RPM's.

So now that you have spark, does the quad run?  Does it run with both CDI's or just one?  

 
garethjwilliams garethjwilliams
New User | Posts: 17 | Joined: 11/10
Posted: 11/19/10
06:19 PM

hi there sorry to hijack the thread but i have a chinese 250cc quad model XS-D055 where would i find the in line pressure switch for the brake light as mine isnt working, the light stays permanently on, so if you could help me i would be greatly appreciated, also is there a manual i can download for the model thanks  

 
wolf1 wolf1
Addict | Posts: 4283 | Joined: 11/07
Posted: 11/19/10
07:31 PM

usually they are mounted at the bak of the brake pedal attached to the pedal with a spring.  
ALL REPAIR ADVICE GIVEN FREELY, I CANNOT ATTEST TO YOUR MECHANICAL ABILITY FOLLOW AT YOUR OWN RISK

Wolf Performance
...KEEP IT RUBBER SIDE DOWN!!....

 
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